Windows down In Autocross

[LeeThompson]

karlyew
CSCC Nurse

Posts: 374
Joined: Sep 2008

RE: Autocross #3, March 5th - CANCELLED
It's a safety issue. If we have to stop a car on course because another one spun out, went off course, etc, we wave a flag and yell at the other car on course to stop. It's like a making double sure that we get their attention. It sucks in the rain, but if we leave the windows cracked or half-down, and God forbid a car was to catch a curb and possibly flip, the window could become a potential safety hazard (I've heard stories). It's all about safety and we try and promote and enforce safety as much as possible at our autocrosses (even if it does "dampen" the fun a little sometimes)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the answer I got to my question and I find it 100% agreeable but how about this.

I am a stickler for safety. However I do not think that I am going to hear some one working the course of an autocross in the rain, with my helmet on face mask down, and engine roaring at 4500 to 5000 rpms when they yell at me telling me that some one has spun out. I will see them waving, or the car spinning, but I Will not hear them.

I always drive autocross and HPDE (you have to) with the windows down, and I know I can not hear what is going on outside of the car if it is more than 10 feet away.

I am not trying to change the rule of "Windows down in an autocross in the sun" I want to change "Windows down in an autocross in the rain".

Is their another reason for this in the rain? I just find it a complete nuisance with all the water in the interior of the car.

[Mr.Rauq]

From the standpoint of being alerted, I doubt I could hear someone trying to catch my ear from outside the car- I have a hard time hearing passengers with the windows down as it is, and I know there are cars out there louder than mine. From that standpoint a noise restriction would probably be just as effective as requiring the windows to be down. Not that I'm pushing noise restrictions...

I can't speak to the safety thing though. I don't know how hard it is to break windows (although I'd imagine it's pretty hard). But would we even be breaking windows? If, God forbid, there were to be a situation that required the windows to be broken, how effective would we even be anyway? I'm all for having the windows down in the sun. Then again, when you state the conflict as being between preserving your car interior and considering your safety, it makes the whole issue that much more muddled. I like my leather though...

Is this a topic even worth discussing? How were windows in the wet handled during previous autocrosses? Is the rule at all negotiable? Can convertibles run with their tops up? Can I ask any more questions?

It's a topic worth discussing, I think, at the very least.

[LeeThompson]

Thats my point. I want to have a good time in the rain, but I do not want to ruin the interior of my car.
If their is a great reason for having the windows down in the rain then I am all for it 100% I just seem not to be able to find it.

I am not sure if Rauq is being sarcastic of not haha.

[JB]

I, for one, would not be happy having to run with my windows down in the rain. I have been yelled at before on course and I saw the people waving the red flags wayyy before I heard any yelling. As for the safety of glass breaking with the windows up...thats what tempered glass and helmets are for. I don't know if it would ruin my interior, but it definitely wouldn't be helping anything...

This forum is for these discussions, so don't be worried about asking questions. Better now than having to figure it out the day of the event.

[LeeThompson]

Well only reason why I bring it up, is because Clemsons2k
and one other person said windows down in rain. Being new I am not sure who is in charge or how things are ran but my thing is to find out why and see if we can change it.

[jedimario]

I'm pretty sure it's an insurance mandated thing. Also, I'm not sure why we tell people it's so they can hear us yelling at them. I honestly don't know why it's a requirement, but NASA requires it at all of their track weekends. The only time you get a pass is if you have fixed windows and race management knows about it and approves of it beforehand, otherwise you're getting black flagged.

A bit of Google searching doesn't provide much; only to better hear what your car is doing and to keep shattered glass (particularly from a hard bump, not an accident) away from you.

[RHennin]

I would say this is a, let's wait until we get to that point, type of question. Yes, we've had autoxs in the rain, but again, it's not a point that should hold up the event. Besides that, the best thing to do is look at the rules.

http://www.scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=61

[jedimario]

What is this SCCA you speak of?

[LeeThompson]

Yes I know at the track it is windows down no mater what. I understand why in that situation, however I do not understand why CSCC has to autcross with windows down.

Like I said I do it anyway but in the rain, I would like to run windows up. I mean we are poor college kids
If it was sunny I have no complaints about windows down.

And I understand the shattered glass thing, however their is more glass in the front windshield. And I hope that at these autocrosses you have to wear a helmet and long pants/ shirts. If thats the case a little glass hitting me or my helmet or my cloths is the LAST thing that will be going through my mind.

Also... this isn't SCCA or NASA. This is CSCC. The point is that these times do not mean anything to those clubs just this one so altering the rules is not a huge deal.

[Clemsons2k]

We have to follow NASA rules though since we use them for insurance. If NASA says windows down, then windows down it is. And trust me, I hate having rain inside my car too. The last aquacross we had pissed me off since I had to keep my window down in the rain. Its really not too bad once the car is at speed though.

[Mr.Rauq]

(03-09-2011 11:10 PM)LeeThompson Wrote:  I am not sure if Rauq is being sarcastic or not haha.

Haha no sarcasm. Crossing that bridge when we get to it sounds good, though. Good discussion, shows how much we all care. No sarcasm.

[101101]

I've never before heard it said that it's so the driver can hear the corner worker yelling before they stop. I have hear that it's so:
1) In the event something bad happens and the door cannot open it's easier to extract the driver
2) So once the driver stops the car (because of a red flag) the corner workers can more easily communicate to the driver any instructions.

Edit: I've run several auto-crosses in the rain. What I would usually do is have the window slightly cracked as I came to the start line for instructions from the workers, then (just before I was told to start) roll down the windows. Once traveling at speed you don't really get much water inside the car.

[93redfox]

^^What Fogle said works. The windows just need to be down for the run. It's for safety, whether incident is probable or not is irrelevant. It's possible, and is therefore required. Since NASA provides our insurance, we adhere to these strict safety rules for participants, cars, course design, and general event procedures. If you don't want to run windows down, don't autocross in the rain.

---

(03-09-2011 11:04 PM)Mr.Rauq Wrote:  Is this a topic even worth discussing? How were windows in the wet handled during previous autocrosses? Is the rule at all negotiable? Can convertibles run with their tops up? Can I ask any more questions?

Not really. Windows(driver's at least) were down. Rule is non-negotiable for insurance purposes, as are the rest of them. Convertibles may run top up or down in any weather. Ask away, it's why we're here!

[Theodore]

I feel your pain in the rain... I was sitting at Belle Cher Autocross in downtown Asheville 4 years ago in my 2 tone red/black leather M Roadster ready to go. Pulled up to line, dropped the top, rolled the windows down and immediately the heavens opened up... thought I'd have a car pool by the end of my run.

What's been stated above is correct. Communications with courseworkers is one of the biggest reasons as your eyes are focused on driving lines and pylons and it's easy to zone out. We've all had cars stop on course... workers started waving flags and as other car on course was still going at speed and we started yelling.

I do know some club have questioned this rule and said in case of a roll, "the windows up would be more likely to help keep participants arms inside the vehicle." Others feel broken glass makes it more likely driver will cut and unnecessarily endangers workers who are trying to help... and that is important. Working EMS for 2 years, one of the first things they teach is don't become an additional victim by risking yourself while trying to help a victim. Deal with the problem and don't take actions that create new problems. Safety is key not only because we care about drivers but we appreciate the sites we have to run and the want to maintain an image of responsible well run safe events.

It's a moot point for CSCC as we run under NASA rules and insurance requirements and their rules state :
"E- When On Course
1. Open both front windows fully."

Besides, Rob Fogle did a study on autocrossing with windows and top down in rain. It clearly proved that if you maintain a proper speed on course, 98% of all raindrops go over the car. If you car interior is getting wet, you are going way too slow. You're not going to argue with a Clemson ME are ya?

[Voodoo G8 GT]

Speaking froma safety stand point, I do not how many of you guys have had to actually break a side car window, but it is not easy. I would rather get a little rain in my car then have blood gushing from an artery while a worker hits the window 6 or 7 times trying to get in......... I have been the guy on the outside beating the window with a tire iron...... it is not a good feeling when you are trying to save someones life. (and yes the doors were looked with the car running in gear, luckily it was already wedged and not moving). By the way the driver did not survive. just my .02