So I've been doing a little research to try and resolve the re-occurring "clunk" coming from the various suspension components in the Slowtege.
Potential sources of clunking in the 3rd-generation Protege: lowered suspension (had this with the Eibachs), rear strut mounts (I've replaced one), bushings (mine are shot), worn struts (which might be the problem now), springs slipping off the mount (the other problem I had with the Eibachs)...
My thoughts for the car long-term were to replace the springs and struts with a coil-over setup (with adjustable-camber upper mounts) like the ones from Ksport or Megan. This might also allow me to run a street-tire class at the local SCCA events. I wasn't planning on doing this until next summer but I could do it now.
The rear sway-bar mounts in particular are supposed to be a major problem, because Mazda put them in a crappy position and they wear out quickly. I was thinking that I could remove the rear anti-sway bar completely and just have higher spring rates for the rear. I'm pretty sure one of the various coil-over companies would permit me to ask for custom rates.
So why wouldn't this work? The only thing I can think of is overall harshness, as a mild anti-sway bar would be more comfortable than upped springs, over rough terrain.
If it would work, how much more spring would be required? I'm sure there is a mathematical formula.
I understand that moving to pillowball will increase noise, but it can't be worse than what I'm dealing with now.
Or should I just upgrade to poly bushings and buy a kit to move the mount points for my anti-sway bar? Squeaking and a slightly harsher ride are not a problem.
You have to make sure your shocks can provide adequate damping to control your stiffer springs. If not, your car will bounce down the road, meaning it will ride like crap. What shocks do you have?
Calculate your sway bar stiffness here:
http://www.tech-session.com/kb/index.php?article=21
Devin
Apparently, Japanese tuners, not having to deal with the cratered moonscapes we call roads, leave off the sway bar, in favor of just having stiffer springs.
Some cars that handle very well, don't use very stiff springs, in favor of big anti-roll bars.
I think it's up to you and your goals.
The clunk might be :
1. springs and perch fit. I added a rubber spacer with a groove to keep it centered that worked pretty well. Also, I found on some springs, there is a difference from top to bottom. I had some "brand X" springs in Elvira and was runing at a CSCC event when they decided to "pop" and I thought I had torn off an A arm!
Not what you want to hear or feel coming into a turn at speed.
2. lube - sway bars only have about 60% effectiveness if they are not greased properly. Some lubes actually break down the poly. Don't use graphite, white lithium or any mix of several. There are only a few really good poly lubes for the application...and if you use them, they don't squeak. If your bushings are not letting the sway bar flex, they begin wallowing around and spinning the bushing ... before long, you have a flat spot on one side and it pops when you flex it. When they get flat spotted, they look fine from outside the bushing mount.
3. brains - a llittle, I know and a lot I don't... I try to borrow brains when I can. I know three CSP National level drivers that change
their bushings out two to three times each season. Maybe, they know something we don't know.
4. rear sway.. can't speak for protege, but most cars, I like no sway on the rear and firmer springs on the front. Not sure if it's my style of driving or what. 2nd gen Miata's handle better for me with a sway in the rear..
Don't know if any of that helps. Still miss you in CSP, haven't seen Josh or the Miata out in a while! I think his pretty lady was getting too close to beating him in that car..
SoloEvo Wrote:You have to make sure your shocks can provide adequate damping to control your stiffer springs. If not, your car will bounce down the road, meaning it will ride like crap. What shocks do you have?
Right now I'm bone-stock. Once I figure out what spring rates I want to run, I'll figure out what struts will work; if I can find off-the-shelf coil-overs that will work, I'll just use those, if not, I may have to get something valved. That can get expensive, so at that point I might just go get another car.
Thanks for the math link!
Theodore Wrote:The clunk might be :
1. springs and perch fit.
The stock rubber piece has a groove the spring can mount into; but aftermarket springs, with little tension at full droop, appear to pop out anyway. This is one reason why I'm looking at a coil-over kit or maybe Ground Controls. With the stock setup, they stay in place.
Theodore Wrote:I know three CSP National level drivers that change their bushings out two to three times each season. Maybe, they know something we don't know.
I think new bushings are going to be needed one way or another, especially up front where I definitely want to keep the anti-sway bar. So bushings plus a good grease, eh? Probably a good place to start. Some of the bushings in the rear are visibly falling apart!
One other thing...may not be helpful. Don't mix combinations... brand X springs and brand Y shocks and brand Z perches may result in lovely decorations for your work bench. Ask me how I know
I went with Koni & Ground Control guys were good to talk through set up. In spiteof all that, I still had to do some grinding to get them to do what I wanted. Call them up and tell them what you want to do and let them advise you. Even if you go somewhere else, borrow their brains.
Nothing worse than opening the big box from UPS, getting all excited, tearing down your suspension and realizing.. "it's not going to fit, I've got to send this back, I've got to put the suspension back together so I can get to work monday AND put up with the clunk/bad ride/squeaks/rattles/etc. for another two weeks!"
Ted
P.S. The only perch you should ever buy off EBAY should be the one for your parakeet.
I ended up having clunking issues with the Accord after putting in Eibach front and rear sway bars. Turned out the front left end link had kinda busted from the stress. Needed to get that replaced with something that could handle it, and then all of a sudden the clunking was gone.
I doubt your problem will be that simple though, that's just my minor input. :-P
Devil07 Wrote:I doubt your problem will be that simple though, that's just my minor input. :-P
No problem. How do you like your SE-R? I miss mine (well, aspects of it)... I still have my Master of the Sixth Speed CD
My parents Corolla had a clunk and it was the sway bar end link. Check that and if the bushing are shot replace those.
I used to have big problems wearing out the front poly bushings on the hatch. I don't think the front suspension was designed for the power I'm making or sticky tires I use
As the bushings wore the car had increasing wheel hop and was darty accelerating and braking. I replaced them with spherical bushings and the hatch feels great! It's just too much for auto-x I need to get it on track or hill climb to see what it can do.
Ted, you are talking about no rear bar on a RWD which is fine. FWD it's the opposite, I have no front bar and a 32mm rear.
As far as running stiffer rear springs instread of a rear bar. In my civic I had decently stiff rear springs, but I put a big rear sway bar (only 27mm) to make it handle better. If anything I would say use the sway bar to make it handle and have the springs be a little softer to be more comfertable. I know you know this but shocks mean a lot when it comes to performance and comfort as well. I stress that with everyone since I made the K-sport mistake.
zps2004 Wrote:As far as running stiffer rear springs instread of a rear bar. In my civic I had decently stiff rear springs, but I put a big rear sway bar (only 27mm) to make it handle better. If anything I would say use the sway bar to make it handle and have the springs be a little softer to be more comfertable. I know you know this but shocks mean a lot when it comes to performance and comfort as well. I stress that with everyone since I made the K-sport mistake.
K-sport mistake?
I've been doing a lot of reading (slow work day) and coil-overs for the Protege run the gamut. Some are saying they don't like their K-sports, and they apparently need rebuilt frequently. I'm thinking BC Racing or the pricey AWR (Bilstein inserts!), but I really want something stainless/aluminum. Yay rust belt.
Hraefn Wrote:zps2004 Wrote:As far as running stiffer rear springs instread of a rear bar. In my civic I had decently stiff rear springs, but I put a big rear sway bar (only 27mm) to make it handle better. If anything I would say use the sway bar to make it handle and have the springs be a little softer to be more comfertable. I know you know this but shocks mean a lot when it comes to performance and comfort as well. I stress that with everyone since I made the K-sport mistake.
K-sport mistake?
I've been doing a lot of reading (slow work day) and coil-overs for the Protege run the gamut. Some are saying they don't like their K-sports, and they apparently need rebuilt frequently. I'm thinking BC Racing or the pricey AWR (Bilstein inserts!), but I really want something stainless/aluminum. Yay rust belt.
Yea well I bought them because they were cheap and they performed ok, but they rode awfull and all 4 shocks blew after 6 months. I was really surprised about the ride because the springs weren't that hard but the valving was really stiff no matter where you put it. I know that Andy loved the K-sports in his protege though, so I guess it is a matter of taste, I just would definatly spend the little bit more money on better shocks, now that I have had both good and bad.
Right Marc...sorry I missed that for you FWD guys. I am looking forward to seeing you on a hillclimb. Just don't be practicing in Peru... heard about some of their roads...
![[Image: the_road_to_combaya.jpg]](http://gardkarlsen.com/bolivia/the_road_to_combaya.jpg)
I have never been a big fan of front wheel drive but.... I'm about to make the jump.
If all goes well, TJ and I will be running a Saab 900 turbo in the next 24 Hour of Lemon at CMP. The car should be in town after Thanksgiving and we have already dubbed it...
FRANKENSAAB
Any body in the club that does upholstery that could do some fancy stitching on a metal fender?
At least it will be easy to find a place to hook up the jumper cables...
On shocks, I still think about this information whenever I hear discussion about them:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
No-name coilovers on my 240z project aside, I want to stick to Koni/Bilstein at a minimum on projects where I am choosing parts from the ground-up, where possible. I've even considered having replacement threaded body inserts made for the 240z if I find the ones I have to be crappy. (I guess it's all moot as long as that car sits in pieces about 30mi away from my garage...)
The variable you are trying to control with sway bars vs. springs is roll stiffness. Roll stiffness is good for keeping your car level so you don't need a ton of static camber to compensate for your McPherson struts' lack of camber gain, but outside that, stiffness can reduce the ability to conform to the road surface. There's also the desirability of quickening transitional response in autocross, so there's a lot to consider.
Adding roll stiffness with springs also increases the vertical ride rate (like you mentioned, possibly affecting everyday comfort) and will require more of your shocks to control the higher spring rate. Adding the stiffness with a sway bar probably allows better conformity to surface irregularities affecting both wheels at the same time, in addition to keeping the rear ride rate similar to the front ride rate. Increased roll stiffness in relation to the other end of the car should still cause a relative decrease in traction, in general.
I haven't read anything specifically about what effect a low front ride rate, high rear ride rate and equal roll rates might have, but perhaps it could affect braking and acceleration transitional response?
As Marc mentioned, you may benefit from having your non-drive-wheels doing more than their fair share of keeping the car upright so there is less weight transfer between the drive wheels.
[some of this discussion based on interpretation of
Race Car Engineering & Mechanics by Paul Valkenburgh]