IIRC, I trapped a few MPH higher than you as well, which shouldn't happen if you have 30-40hp on me, regardless of launch (and mine were terrible too... 2.1-2.3 sec 60'). Somethin fishy goin on there for sure... either mine is low or yours is high
I went on a rant about this earlier somewhere, I don't remember if it was here, Jalopnik, another forum, or whatever... I think it was regarding the Boss 302 and revving higher and all that good stuff.
I see that OHC engines are probably the better way to make power with tighter emissions regs. Like John said, that's been apparent for quite a while now. But I liken LS pushrod engines to the Mustang's log axle- GM has engineered the snot out of a pushrod engine. I don't say anything about the stang's wagon axle (ok, I joke, but who doesn't?) not only because Ford has engineered the snot out of it, but also because I have an equally ancient pushrod V8 under my hood.
It's hard to engineer an OHV engine to rev as high as an OHC for the same cost. The extra valvetrain is what requires titanium retainers and chrome moly pushrods and all the extra expensive bits to rev higher. I'd love to see a real Z28 Camaro, Chevy's answer to the Boss 302, but I can't see the engine following the heart of the Z28 with high NA revs.
--quick topic change--
I'm pretty sure I've said *this* before, but I really want to see factory stripped vehicles. Take the cost savings you get from hvac/stereo/sound deadening/rear set deletes and put it into the engine, transmission, and suspension. Let the absence of amenities be the barrier to entry, not price. Let people that want fast cars with all the extras buy Porsches and Jags. I'd buy a Mustang or a Camaro that was 500 lbs lighter with a few extra revs and ponies and harsher adjustable suspension if it cost the same or even a little more than a base GT/SS.
Thoughts?
(03-08-2011 12:32 AM)humjaba Wrote: [ -> ]IIRC, I trapped a few MPH higher than you as well, which shouldn't happen if you have 30-40hp on me, regardless of launch (and mine were terrible too... 2.1-2.3 sec 60'). Somethin fishy goin on there for sure... either mine is low or yours is high
Ya, that is odd. Our cars probably weigh about the same too. Did you dyno yours on a dynojet? It could very well be that dyno I used reads high. Or my motor lost some power in the 2 years between dyno and drag
(03-08-2011 12:54 AM)Mr.Rauq Wrote: [ -> ]I went on a rant about this earlier somewhere, I don't remember if it was here, Jalopnik, another forum, or whatever... I think it was regarding the Boss 302 and revving higher and all that good stuff.
I see that OHC engines are probably the better way to make power with tighter emissions regs. Like John said, that's been apparent for quite a while now. But I liken LS pushrod engines to the Mustang's log axle- GM has engineered the snot out of a pushrod engine. I don't say anything about the stang's wagon axle (ok, I joke, but who doesn't?) not only because Ford has engineered the snot out of it, but also because I have an equally ancient pushrod V8 under my hood.
It's hard to engineer an OHV engine to rev as high as an OHC for the same cost. The extra valvetrain is what requires titanium retainers and chrome moly pushrods and all the extra expensive bits to rev higher. I'd love to see a real Z28 Camaro, Chevy's answer to the Boss 302, but I can't see the engine following the heart of the Z28 with high NA revs.
--quick topic change--
I'm pretty sure I've said *this* before, but I really want to see factory stripped vehicles. Take the cost savings you get from hvac/stereo/sound deadening/rear set deletes and put it into the engine, transmission, and suspension. Let the absence of amenities be the barrier to entry, not price. Let people that want fast cars with all the extras buy Porsches and Jags. I'd buy a Mustang or a Camaro that was 500 lbs lighter with a few extra revs and ponies and harsher adjustable suspension if it cost the same or even a little more than a base GT/SS.
Thoughts?
They won't do things that way because Porsche already does them....."Hey you want a stripped out 911 GT3 called the RS? That'll be an additional 25K please. How about a stripped out Boxster? 15K...." You get the idea. Plus, American companies are all about SALES. The only reason that your car got the ax was SALES. It was worshipped by critics and by those that own them, but it sold something less than 10k right? Or 10% of the Mustang's annual sales. People won't buy enough of the stripped out ones. The Boss is about as good as it gets for what you're after. It's not any lighter, but it's got a ballin adjustable suspension, revs like crazy, and even has launch control and those awesome side exhausts that I want SOO BADDD
They had trouble selling 40k GTOs over the 3 years it was here, so I can see that. But do you really think that if dealers had a COPO option (I don't know what Ford's equivalent was, but COPO orders allowed Yenko and others to build factory menace cars) for a Mustang GT or Camaro SS in essentially a factory-stripped spec, that they wouldn't order them and people wouldn't buy them? I guess this is where we're going back and forth.
Then again, do you really think that sales of the Boss 302 are the reason why they're making the Boss 302? Besides the pure awesome, do you really think it's as much of a sales thing as it is a halo car/technology testbed/marketing effort? I'm actually interested as to what you (Steve, and maybe Tyler) have to say on that topic.
How many Raptor owners take their trucks offroad, do you think? Probably a measurable increase over regular F150 owners, but I'm pretty sure the soccer mom I saw in a blue Raptor this past weekend dropping her kids off at the pool doesn't offroad. The Raptor's probably as much of a halo car/technology testbed/marketing effort as it is a vehicle to boost sales.
(03-08-2011 04:02 PM)Mr.Rauq Wrote: [ -> ]They had trouble selling 40k GTOs over the 3 years it was here, so I can see that. But do you really think that if dealers had a COPO option (I don't know what Ford's equivalent was, but COPO orders allowed Yenko and others to build factory menace cars) for a Mustang GT or Camaro SS in essentially a factory-stripped spec, that they wouldn't order them and people wouldn't buy them? I guess this is where we're going back and forth.
Then again, do you really think that sales of the Boss 302 are the reason why they're making the Boss 302? Besides the pure awesome, do you really think it's as much of a sales thing as it is a halo car/technology testbed/marketing effort? I'm actually interested as to what you (Steve, and maybe Tyler) have to say on that topic.
How many Raptor owners take their trucks offroad, do you think? Probably a measurable increase over regular F150 owners, but I'm pretty sure the soccer mom I saw in a blue Raptor this past weekend dropping her kids off at the pool doesn't offroad. The Raptor's probably as much of a halo car/technology testbed/marketing effort as it is a vehicle to boost sales.
You're dead on with the Raptor. They only had planned to sell around 2000......but they've more than doubled that I believe. It was only supposed to be a cool truck for psychos and a sort of halo for the whole F150 lineup, but they underestimated how people would take to the aggressive look and presence of the truck. Now Chevy and Dodge are scrambiling to create their own steroided versions of their trucks. The Boss on the other hand.......I see that as a big fat birdie directed at Chevy and even the M3. "You think you're soooo bad.....suck on this!" They easily could have added 20 HP, some stickers, and maybe some interior trim and called it a day, a la the 03-04 Mach 1 or 08 Bullitt. Both of those are awesome ( I had an 08 Bullitt hence my name on here), but weren't as drastically different or as shockingly faster than their standard GTs as the Boss is. The Boss exists solely to kick A$$ which it does in spades
So you say marketing/halo more than sales? I sure hope the Boss 302 pulls a Raptor then and people scramble to buy them- not because of the name and the story behind it, but because of the awesomeness. I'd love for Ford to see that people want track-prepped cars from the factory. If you haven't picked up on it yet, I want a Z/28 that's actually a Z/28...
I want to find the Ford engineer that had the idea of the side pipes and buy him a drink. Factory side exit exhaust. Pure awesome.
Quick thing about the 03/04 Mach 1... It had an entirely different engine/transmission than the GT (it had the 32V DOHC, similar to the 01 Cobra).
Sadly my prediction is that it will go down like this: the few dealers that get the Boss 302 will jack up the retail price to something only collectors can afford. Then, nobody will ever drive them, and we'll never see them. It will likely be much the same as the 2000 Cobra R - an immensely capable, awesome N/A machine, but dealers will gauge buyers on the pricing and nobody will ever really drive them.
BTW, ford does track-prepped cars from the factory. But they're literally track cars, not street legal consumer cars
http://www.fordracingparts.com/competition/default.asp
(03-08-2011 11:40 PM)humjaba Wrote: [ -> ]Quick thing about the 03/04 Mach 1... It had an entirely different engine/transmission than the GT (it had the 32V DOHC, similar to the 01 Cobra).
Sadly my prediction is that it will go down like this: the few dealers that get the Boss 302 will jack up the retail price to something only collectors can afford. Then, nobody will ever drive them, and we'll never see them. It will likely be much the same as the 2000 Cobra R - an immensely capable, awesome N/A machine, but dealers will gauge buyers on the pricing and nobody will ever really drive them.
BTW, ford does track-prepped cars from the factory. But they're literally track cars, not street legal consumer cars
http://www.fordracingparts.com/competition/default.asp
They are going to do 4000 Bosses, so I hope that will encourage them to be driven hard. The Mustang project chief even said "I want to see these on YouTube doing bad things......that's what this car is about"
(03-08-2011 04:22 PM)stevebullitt Wrote: [ -> ]You're dead on with the Raptor. They only had planned to sell around 2000......but they've more than doubled that I believe. It was only supposed to be a cool truck for psychos and a sort of halo for the whole F150 lineup, but they underestimated how people would take to the aggressive look and presence of the truck. Now Chevy and Dodge are scrambiling to create their own steroided versions of their trucks.
Zombie killin machines that's why they sold so many lol!