Clemson Sports Car Club

lol, the power gains from using 10.5:1 pistons versus 9:1 pistons will not be that substantial, at least not enough to justify the smaller tuning window.
it's not an all-motor car, changes in static compression ratio aren't as nearly important.
full boost will show up slightly earlier, and he'll make a little bit more torque throughout.

he actually has slightly higher than stock compression.
i feel sorry for him when he gets a bad batch of E85.

it's a 1.6L engine, it's not going to make that much tq.
who cares, he should have at least 8000 rpm.
that turbo he has supports 450-500 whp pretty easily.

will his setup work and run properly? yes
is it a commonly, preferred setup? hell no

i'm just going to stop here so this doens't keep on...i think both sides make good points..and i agree it will work just fine. I do agree with not boring because of reliability issue's, i didn't even bore my Darton Sleeves. I'll say one thing though, this guy will get a lot of weird looks when he tells people what his setup is made of and i'm sure it will spark a lot of conversations like this one.

It's been fun reading some of the responses and viewpoints. S2K motors and K20's are high compression motors (roughly 11:1) that people make 450-500 whp reliably and consistently on stock internals.

On a small displacement Honda motor, any small change including compression ratio makes a noticeable difference. Boring out (a.k.a thinning out) the sleeves is not a reasonable option here. Customer wants fast throttle response and ultra fast spool up. This higher compression motor and E85 will be able to handle that reliably. At the end of the day, this car was built with the customers goals and best interests in mind, not the internet.

the only reason i'd maintain a stock or slightly higher than stock compression ratio is if i was keeping the stock rods and pistons.
b16's are like 10.2-10.4:1, 10.5:1 isn't a big deal, it's not like he put 12:1 pistons in.
if i was going through the effort of upgrading the rods and pistons, i'd probably slightly lower the compression unless he never plans to exceed 300-350 whp, if that is the case, he has the wrong turbo.
in the long run, he'll barely see a difference in effective dynamic CR, but a noticeable difference in his timing map.
the power difference would probably be negligible at 15+ psi.

i wouldn't consider that an all-round street car.
what happens if he can't find e85?
without uploading a new map, it won't be very driveable with 92-93 octane.

boring the block isn't a big deal, going 0.020" over isn't a problem.
if the stock cylinders dial-gauge out fine, i'd also stick with stock bore and hone it out.
less machine work & hassle is required, especially if you do it correctly with a deckplate and bellhousing.

i'm surprised he reused the oem main bolts.

---

(04-23-2010 04:28 PM)Spent Wrote: [ -> ]It's been fun reading some of the responses and viewpoints. S2K motors and K20's are high compression motors (roughly 11:1) that people make 450-500 whp reliably and consistently on stock internals.

On a small displacement Honda motor, any small change including compression ratio makes a noticeable difference. Boring out (a.k.a thinning out) the sleeves is not a reasonable option here. Customer wants fast throttle response and ultra fast spool up. This higher compression motor and E85 will be able to handle that reliably. At the end of the day, this car was built with the customers goals and best interests in mind, not the internet.

apples to oranges there, well probably more like red to green apples.
k20 and f20/f22 are more efficient & stronger motors.
an s2000 has oem forged internals and most turbo setups have tubular manifolds with less back pressure.

if he wanted fast throttle response and ultra fast spool up...
buy a new turbo or get a bigger motor.
a 50 trim on a b16 isn't exactly a lagless setup.

it's his own right to build whatever he wants, it doesn't mean he's doing what's considered to be the commonly accepted correct thing.

what are his goals and interests?

^

GSR head puts static compression ratio at 11.2:1

STOCK K & F is not the same as a BUILT B16. We can all agree on that. The idea behind that comment was simply a general concept of the longevity and limits of properly tuned small displacement high compression engines.

Customer wanted to work with a B16 and given his goals of 350-400whp with a fast spool, this was the best option taking budget into account. If budget allows in the future, there will be a tubular top mount manifold and re-tune.

I'll put the benefits of this setup in layman's. Take the exact same setup with the same whp but a 9:1 compression ratio. The higher compression setup would completely dominate in that after shifting gears, the lag experienced is greatly reduced because of the higher compression. Not to mention higher compression generally yields higher torque numbers and more power at less boost. Again, we've seen this time and after time.

Why are you surprised that stock main bolts were used? The vast majority of 400-600whp Honda setups we've tuned have used stock main bolts, including my own 600whp RSX-S for the past 45K miles/ 3.5 years. When I reused the main bolts on my setup, they already had 60K miles on them.

Sleeves are the weak point of Honda engines. If the cylinders walls are within specs, it is in the best interests of the customer to maintain stock bore for reliability and longevity. It's just not a good idea.

There are plenty of E85 gas stations in our area. In case you didn't know, a car tuned on E85 wouldn't run at all if filled 93 octane. It would completely flood the engine.

Your comment regarding the 50trim and larger motor is simply misguided. A 50 trim on a b16 is as lag-less as it gets on a 350-400whp setup. We've seen this over and over, time after time.

Please read into the benefits of E85 before you make any more misguided comments regarding this specific setup. You and anyone else are more than welcome to attend when tuning starts on this setup. You can watch and ask questions as well. No bid deal, this level of interaction is actually something we enjoy.

(04-23-2010 01:58 PM)zps2004 Wrote: [ -> ]Marc has issues getting 450WHP down on 225 hoosiers, in his car which has a decent amount of weight on the front wheels as well.

I have never purposely run 25psi (441whp) on the street or at an autocross on the 225 A6 Hoosiers. I don't have any traction problems that I'm aware of with the 225 A6 Hoosiers on at 15-19psi. Even on street tires at 19psi the car can hook up good in all gears other than first, but that isn't something a little modulation with the gas peddle doesn't handle. Where are you getting this info? Ask anyone that has ridden in the car if it hooks up or not.

Someday I will put 275 A6 Hoosiers on the front and turn up the boost, but that might be awhile.

(04-24-2010 12:42 AM)clemsonhatch Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-23-2010 01:58 PM)zps2004 Wrote: [ -> ]Marc has issues getting 450WHP down on 225 hoosiers, in his car which has a decent amount of weight on the front wheels as well.

I have never purposely run 25psi (441whp) on the street or at an autocross on the 225 A6 Hoosiers. I don't have any traction problems that I'm aware of with the 225 A6 Hoosiers on at 15-19psi. Even on street tires at 19psi the car can hook up good in all gears other than first, but that isn't something a little modulation with the gas peddle doesn't handle. Where are you getting this info? Ask anyone that has ridden in the car if it hooks up or not.

Someday I will put 275 A6 Hoosiers on the front and turn up the boost, but that might be awhile.

The car hooks up, I'll vouch for that.

Scorke

I remember from when you and sam were, ummm "testing" out each other that you said you were having traction problems. I also thought you were not able to floor it much at the last autocross, from that I remember. It has been a while so I could be wrong.

I still wanna see it with the 275's

---

Don't think this counts as traction in 2nd gear on street tires. 3rd yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVD8TLr-rHs

I personally have had stock main bolts stretch on me. Lost tons of power on the dyno and you could hear the coolant bubbling in the over flow can. When your going through the expense of building a motor the cost of main studs like ARP's are a very small cost for the piece of mind that they can bring, wish i could say i didn't learn this through experience! No head gasket or bolt stretch problems since i changed to ARP's! On a side note: Supposely even ARP studs can stretch..my tuner suggested that i re-torque the studs after break in...i really didn't want to do this but i did...after tightening all of them about three turned a little. Personally i wont probably do this again in the future but some did turn a little.

^ I'm fairly sure that you're confusing main bolts with the head studs. Its very common in boosted applications to encounter stretched head bolts, resulting in the symptoms that you were listing. We always recommend ARP head studs.

Re tightening the studs after break-in has been a debated topic. With my own cars, I've done it in some and not in others, both with good results. For customers cars, we've always recommended that the studs be re torqued prior to the tuning session.

Looks good now you just have to find the other half the engine.

(04-23-2010 02:01 PM)Shon Herron Wrote: [ -> ]prediction, customer will be very happy with car and sell it within 12mths for something else.
That has been his MO so far....that red Z28 was a good little runner (must have been the tuner, LOL) but he did not keep it long after it was together....

12 months? Who owns a car that long?

your correct i should have thought before i spoke there...but yea i def. think its a good idea but is just a big hassle when you have to redo your timing..especially when you have an auto tensioner, pop it in and your one tooth off...talk about frustration!

^ I agree. It can be a pain, especially in your case where you also need to deal with balance shaft belts.

Update: We received new Hasport mounts for this car today. We have a few loose ends to hem up, then on to the roller for break in and tuning.

Id run 6:1 compression in my car if it were easier...

BUT i have a bit different goals than most... HAHAHAHA

---

(04-24-2010 01:38 AM)evilevo11 Wrote: [ -> ]The car hooks up, I'll vouch for that.

Scorke

Me too... It hooks damn well for a FWD car

Motor is in and added some Hasport mounts to the build